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UNC Basketball 2014-2015 Discussion Thread

Simply undoing what has been done is no punishment at all. Imagine if the punishment for insider trading was to disgorge profits and nothing more, except the shame of being caught. Or imagine if the punishment for speeding was to be held up by a cop for the exact amount of time you saved by going over the speed limit and nothing more. Everyone would be insider trading and speeding, more so than they do now. There needs to be excess punishment for the punishment to have any value to society as deterrence.
 
That was just a general rant against UNC fans who think, "maybe they'll just take the 2005 title away, damn, that would be really harsh, so they should stop there." It's not a punishment at all. Having the gum you just stole from the store taken away after you chew it is nothing.

Would there be anyone really opposed to executing Ray Felton for this? That should be on the table.
 
I really feel like IC has turned into PSU post-Paterno with some of this shit.


--- uncy13 wrote:

I'm not sure why people are blaming people like Thad. Our athletic department used the academic system to cheat, and the academic people should really be ashamed of themselves. This isn't supposed to happen on their watch.

---------------------------------------------
AnnArborHeel Wrote
No, not "Our athletic department" - a small number of individuals within our athletic department, NONE of whom were in an real position of power.

That's an important distinction.
 
SeanMayTriedToEatMe said:
Simply undoing what has been done is no punishment at all. Imagine if the punishment for insider trading was to disgorge profits and nothing more, except the shame of being caught. Or imagine if the punishment for speeding was to be held up by a cop for the exact amount of time you saved by going over the speed limit and nothing more. Everyone would be insider trading and speeding, more so than they do now. There needs to be excess punishment for the punishment to have any value to society as deterrence.
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I just don't think the analogy works as well when you have a completely different cast of characters who are getting punished. You can go after Raj Rajaratnam and throw him in jail after the fact but here you have to punish an entity (the UNC athletic department) for actions of individuals who are going to walk scott free no matter what, most of which are no longer even associated with the university (this is the case in football at least). That said, I still support the idea of doing that, as I said. You almost have to, as a deterrence/accountability matter, but you need to protect the current athletes it effects by lifting in full all restrictions on transfer. I just don't see forward looking punishments happening for UNC BB at this point.

Disgorgement is still certainly an important part of the punishment for insider trading and I think for a college athletic department (and fans of college sports generally), stripping away wins and titles is a big deal and is relatively analogous. That's the currency that these programs trade in, in large part. Having to take down a NCAAB national title banner is, I think, a horrible result for them and their supporters (a quick scan at IC if you can stomach it, seems to confirm this).
 
My honest view is that football, men's and women's basketball and whatever other sports benefited significantly from the cheating should be banned from competition for at least one season, with reduced scholarships that gradually come back over the ensuing 3-4 seasons (e.g., 8 basketball scholarships for the 1st year back, then 10, then the full 13; limiting basketball scholarships to 10 doesn't really hurt a program since they usually don't even fill 10 scholarships with good players). Players should be allowed to transfer wherever they want immediately, obviously. I don't see how any neutral person can think simply stripping wins would be fair punishment for what is being widely considered the most egregious lack of institutional control in history. Every sport heavily involved should get something similar to what SMU football got. The only aspect I'm not sure how I feel about is whether the ban should be one season or two.

Is this homerism? I don't feel like a homer. I think I would be saying the same thing if this happened at Duke. This whole thing is preposterous. 18 years of blatantly defeating the entire foundation and purpose of the NCAA and college athletics.
 
I don't feel like a homer when I say death penalty. The magnitude of this is unmatched.
 
I mean, I hope they do that. They deserve it, certainly, I'm just not in that place with you because I think it is way beyond the realm of reality. Where SMTTEM and I seem to differ is that I do feel like taking down championship banners is a huge deal. I'm not saying it's a sufficient punishment in the aggregate but I think it's much more damaging then many people think. I don't think it's a slap on the wrist and I believe it would be a first of its kind punishment for NCAAB (recognizing that they've done that it in several cases for Final Four banners).
 
I think there needs to be some prospective penalties as well. If ceding that taking a championship banner down is enough, all you're saying is "well if we cheat we better do it a fuckload to guarantee a title, because if we don't win a title while we're cheating then they'll punish us going forward"
 
I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing from me but something else bothered me lol. I'm no statistics major or expert but a lot of UNC fans hold their hat on the 47% number for athletes. When you think about the regular student population versus the athlete population aren't athletes very overrepresented in the numbers thus completely destroying the argument about non athletes taking it more? Not sure if that made sense or not.
 
Depending on what you think the prospective penalties are, better hope this thing drags out at least another 6-9 months. A one year postseason ban in 2015 is nice, but if this thing dragged out and the NCAA had to issue a one year postseason ban in 2016, that would be amazing. Takes UNC out of the running for every single elite 2016 prospect.
 
I think just the idea of it dragging in general, and the uncertainty of it all, is going to hurt with 2016 recruits in any event, no matter what the ultimate punishment is. The next six-nine months are pretty big for establishing a short list if you're planning on attending college in fall 2016.
 
uncy12 said:
I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing from me but something else bothered me lol. I'm no statistics major or expert but a lot of UNC fans hold their hat on the 47% number for athletes. When you think about the regular student population versus the athlete population aren't athletes very overrepresented in the numbers thus completely destroying the argument about non athletes taking it more? Not sure if that made sense or not.
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That's a straw they're grasping. Somewhere in the report it specifically mentions that athletes make up less than either 2% or 4% of the entire student body (I forget which it was). Either way, that's a helluva high percentage of athletes vs non-athletes when you consider what a small percentage of the student body athletes make up.
 
SeanMayTriedToEatMe said:
My honest view is that football, men's and women's basketball and whatever other sports benefited significantly from the cheating should be banned from competition for at least one season, with reduced scholarships that gradually come back over the ensuing 3-4 seasons (e.g., 8 basketball scholarships for the 1st year back, then 10, then the full 13; limiting basketball scholarships to 10 doesn't really hurt a program since they usually don't even fill 10 scholarships with good players). Players should be allowed to transfer wherever they want immediately, obviously. I don't see how any neutral person can think simply stripping wins would be fair punishment for what is being widely considered the most egregious lack of institutional control in history. Every sport heavily involved should get something similar to what SMU football got. The only aspect I'm not sure how I feel about is whether the ban should be one season or two.

Is this homerism? I don't feel like a homer. I think I would be saying the same thing if this happened at Duke. This whole thing is preposterous. 18 years of blatantly defeating the entire foundation and purpose of the NCAA and college athletics.
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If this happened at Duke, I'd actively advocate for closing sports, or at least going non-scholly. It isn't even close to worth it. Duke was a top-5 school before we had ever won an NCAA title in anything.

Ironically, UNC was a top-10 school (#9 in USNWR in 83 or 84 I think) well before its true athletic heyday. It now stands at #30. And dropping. Obviously other things factor more heavily, but the notion that a strong athletic department is the least bit important to a strong University is absolute hogwash. See: SEC.
 
If a single banner came down from the basketball program, it's more than I ever imagined they'd actually get. 18 years of cheating deserves as harsh a punishment as possible.
A couple cancelled seasons, very limited recruiting contact and starting with 5 scholarships, then 7, then 10, then 12 then 13 feels more appropriate to me than anything. Hit them harder than any program has been hit before. 18 years of cheating, harshest punishment is deserved.
 
18 years of academic cheating should drop that 30th ranking into a free fall.
 
I have a friend whose daughter graduated from UNC last year and who was recently hired by the New York Times. He told me that today her supervisor asked her if she'd taken any AFAM classes. She told him no, but that he could feel free to look at her transcripts.
I had read some comments yesterday from people talking about how this "marginalized" UNC degrees - especially if the degree holder had an AFAM class listed on their transcripts - but I thought they were being extreme. This brought it to light for me that it's a very real thing that could actually impact some people's lives and careers.
 
Kind of silly for the supervisor to ask that to someone that is already working there. And if she had? What would they do?
 
StopThePumpFakesShav said:
Kind of silly for the supervisor to ask that to someone that is already working there. And if she had? What would they do?
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She's been working there two or three weeks, so she's basically in a trial period. Who knows what could tip the scales against you, especially if you're competing with someone else for a permanent spot, or a higher rung on the ladder?
 
Expert: Fallout from NCAA scandal could hurt UNC in major ways
An expert who deals with the NCAA is suggesting the fallout could cost UNC a championship banner inside the Dean Dome.

As a former compliance director at Maryland, former president of the National Association of Academic Advisors for Athletics and now president of the Drake Group, Gerald Gurney has studied literally every academic fraud case and how it was adjudicated by the NCAA since 1953. He is the preeminent scholar on the topic and when Gurney spoke with ABC11 Thursday, he pulled no punches when it came to North Carolina and the sanctions they may face.

"Schemed, long-term, deliberate," said Gurney.

Gurney, who now teaches at Oklahoma, has seen it all when it comes to academic fraud.

"My favorite case was the Georgia Southern case when the basketball coaches actually went to the final exams of a player, posing as the players," he said.

Still, Gurney said what happened at Carolina over 18 years trumps it all

"The worst case in the history," Gurney said. "There is nothing that even comes close to the level and the magnitude of this case."

Gurney says UNC's complete lack of oversight is inexcusable in this case and points to one of the most dreaded phrases in the NCAA lexicon.

"That would likely bring you a violation of lack of institutional control," he said.

So where does Carolina go from here as it relates to the NCAA? Bubba Cunningham said Wednesday that the school will not sanction itself any further. Gurney said he doesn't expect the NCAA to try and make a statement. Essentially, it doesn't need to. The infractions are serious enough on their own merit.

"Lack of institutional control usually affects financial aid," said Gurney. "Various teams, it affects long-term probation of various teams. You also have a number of ethical violations."

Yes, in Gurney's estimation, if the NCAA finds even one player stayed eligible because of fraudulent classes, wins and titles could be forfeited.

"It would not be at all unusual if those games had to be vacated," said Gurney.

The one place Gurney took issue with Wainstein was his relative absolution of Roy Williams and what he says he knew about the sham classes.

"That kind of defies logic to me, and I think the NCAA will take a long look at that issue," he said.

The NCAA can take a very different view of Williams' culpability. Their new rules state that a head coach is responsible either way.

When asked if Williams is out of the woods in Gurney's mind, he replied, "Not by a long shot."
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