Game Thread [2022-23] USC Upstate

[dukebluedevils05]

Yeah, there’s certain things defensively that I feel like you can tell are just much better and directly linked to coaching. Deflections is a big one for me. Guys having a better feel of when to jump to disrupt a (potential) pass because they know their teammate is recovering. Saw that multiple times tonight.

 

[rome8180]

Yeah, there’s certain things defensively that I feel like you can tell are just much better and directly linked to coaching. Deflections is a big one for me. Guys having a better feel of when to jump to disrupt a (potential) pass because they know their teammate is recovering. Saw that multiple times tonight.

For me it's all about the ball screen coverage.

 

[deeyoukayeee]

I'd love to hear K's honest opinion about what he is seeing this team do defensively. Do you think he is angry they aren't playing 'correctly' or he's just amazed at what's happening? Must be similar to what Roy saw when Hubert started using a single big and focused on creating space - 'Aw shucks, I didn't know that was possible!?!?!'.

 

[Slap the Floor]

I'd love to hear K's honest opinion about what he is seeing this team do defensively. Do you think he is angry they aren't playing 'correctly' or he's just amazed at what's happening? Must be similar to what Roy saw when Hubert started using a single big and focused on creating space - 'Aw shucks, I didn't know that was possible!?!?!'.

I don't think Coach K gives a shit, nor should he. He went to two Elite 8's and a Final Four in 3 of his last 4 seasons, and Scheyer was on staff for every all of them.

Based on the people I've talked to and what I've seen, I think Scheyer has an opportunity and the ability to take Duke to a higher level than Coach K did post-2015. But I just can't understand why people are so eager and almost happy to throw it in Coach K's face. It's so strange. Has there been anyone in college basketball even remotely as successful as Coach K was after the age of 70? It's vital context that gets completely ignored when people unfairly trash him. 99% of coaches would kill to have the 5 seasons K had from 70-75 in their entire career.

 

[rome8180]

"Good results don't count without verve."

 

[deeyoukayeee]

99% of coaches would kill to have the 5 seasons K had from 70-75 in their entire career.

99.999% of coaches have never sniffed a single roster as talented as K had every one of those years. A huge chunk of them would have made AT LEAST the elite eight with multiple teams that featured 3-4 guys who were near-term NBA starters.

I first met K when I was 11 and attended his first ever basketball camp at Duke. I was in the first non-UCLA/UC class that has ever seen their basketball team make the FF every year they were there. I am neither eager nor happy to 'throw' anything in K's face. But as much as I love the dude for all the joy he has brought to my life, I'm not some blind sycophant who can't see that the man was unwilling/unable to adapt to the modern game and feel at least some disappointment given how brilliant he has been for so long.

I'm shocked that you're shocked that TDF isn't some haven of unbridled veneration for Duke luminaries. You've been here long enough to know better.

 

[childress22]

I also kinda feel like at some point in the last decade K's off-court coaching (team management/leadership) went from "Kenny Atkinson Nets" to "Steve Nash Nets." Swung just a bit too far toward catering to star players, too far from "earn PT with defense."

 

[Devilsforlife]

Was K’s career phenomenal overall? Yes. Was our talent maximized over his last seven years at Duke? No. I think this is pretty clear.

 

[rome8180]

I also kinda feel like at some point in the last decade K's off-court coaching (team management/leadership) went from "Kenny Atkinson Nets" to "Steve Nash Nets." Swung just a bit too far toward catering to star players, too far from "earn PT with defense."

John Watson mentioned on our podcast that he felt 2014 was the first time K really "sold his soul" to cater to an elite prospect. He was talking about Jabari of course. Jabari's defensive effort was pathetic. I put him and Bagley as the worst defenders in Duke history. Anyway, the point was that there was zero accountability. Jabari wasn't coming off the floor even if he'd stood there with his eyes closed.

You couple that with the "if I break a nail I'm sitting out for six weeks because I'm too valuable to get injured" and you create a climate that isn't conducive to high levels of effort. Either you're a star with no accountability or you're a non-star being asked to pick up the slack and feeling resentful as a result.

And that's just on defense. On offense, it tends to devolve into "stand around and watch the awesome guy score on an iso."

 

[childress22]

Yep, every single thing in the above post.

 

[childress22]

And that's just on defense. On offense, it tends to devolve into "stand around and watch the awesome guy score on an iso."

Which is less conducive to long-term success and less fun to watch...

... and still better than 'let's watch Trevor Keels of all people NOT score on an iso"

 

[LastHearth]

I think with K in the later years you have to take the whole package, you get the larger than life legend who could practically pick and choose his recruits, but you also get the old man past his prime who can no longer has the energy or the drive to squeeze every ounce out of his roster.
You can't separate his teams' talent level from the fact that his legendary status is the culmination of 30+ years of accomplishment that leaves him the old and tired man that he was. And I don't think the issue was ever defensive schemes. Heck he had Scheyer on his staff, surely if the issue was just the knowledge of schemes they could have run the same ones last year as the ones they are running this year.

The fact of the matter is you're dealing with 18-19 year olds, and to get them to have the discipline to play good defense consistently for 30 secs each possession takes more than just schemes, it takes relentless will to beat the good defensive habits into them.

 

[rome8180]

I think with K in the later years you have to take the whole package, you get the larger than life legend who could practically pick and choose his recruits, but you also get the old man past his prime who can no longer has the energy or the drive to squeeze every ounce out of his roster.
You can't separate his teams' talent level from the fact that his legendary status is the culmination of 30+ years of accomplishment that leaves him the old and tired man that he was. And I don't think the issue was ever defensive schemes. Heck he had Scheyer on his staff, surely if the issue was just the knowledge of schemes they could have run the same ones last year as the ones they are running this year.

The fact of the matter is you're dealing with 18-19 year olds, and to get them to have the discipline to play good defense consistently for 30 secs each possession takes more than just schemes, it takes relentless will to beat the good defensive habits into them.

How much freedom did he allow Scheyer to run his own schemes though? Anything they did still ultimately had to be approved by K.

You heard on the broadcast tonight that Scheyer has explicitly said he doesn't want to deny out as far. Maybe he said that to K. But did K listen?

 

[rome8180]

I'm actually digging this flopping rule. I am sure there will be some bad calls. But what I liked is I noticed that the refs were choosing not to call it either way most of the time.

And I say this as someone who is not anti-charge. I've always been okay with taking charges because modern rules privilege the offensive player so much. But it was very satisfying to see "play-on" no-calls over and and over tonight.

 

[SeanMayTriedToEatMe]

That simply is not reality with any untouchable president, CEO or head coach.

 

[DUKERULES14]

A good goal for Jon, a high goal, but not unrealistic, would be to exceed post-2001 K

Post-2001 K had:
two titles
four FF's
seven Elite Eights
9 ACC titles
3 #1 Final AP Poll finishes
7 AP Top 5 finishes
17 AP Top 10 Finishes
10 30-win seasons
2 35-win seasons, in his last 21 years.

If Jon's resume looks similar to this in his first twenty years (I'll prorate the results a bit if he isn't here that long), I consider it a success.

 

[Slap the Floor]

99% of coaches would kill to have the 5 seasons K had from 70-75 in their entire career.

99.999% of coaches have never sniffed a single roster as talented as K had every one of those years. A huge chunk of them would have made AT LEAST the elite eight with multiple teams that featured 3-4 guys who were near-term NBA starters.

There is only one other coach that has had comparable talent to Coach K since 2015, and Coach K performed significantly better than him in the NCAA Tournament despite being much older in that time span.

Coach K was not a disaster on the sideline post-2015. Could things have been better? Absolutely. He wasn't great by any means, but that doesn't mean you can just take any coach, insert them into that role, and he would've outperformed Coach K. The Bagley/Carter team had a lot of talent, sure, but it was poor roster construction. That team never makes the Elite Eight or comes within inches of a Final Four if Coach K and the staff didn't make a full pivot to a 2-3 zone. The Zion team was on pace to be one of the best in KenPom history until his shoe blew out. The 2019-2020 team overachieved. The COVID season was bad. In his final season Coach K was outstanding on the sideline in the Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight. They completely shredded the nation's best defense in the second half.

Coach K was not perfect by any means, but to just assume that a bunch of coaches would've walked all of those teams to a Final Four or a National Championship just doesn't feel like it would've been a reality. I would make a strong bet that a lot of coaches would want nothing to do with the inexperience on a lot of those Duke's rosters, because they are system coaches.

 

[Slap the Floor]

Was K’s career phenomenal overall? Yes. Was our talent maximized over his last seven years at Duke? No. I think this is pretty clear.

I think generally speaking our talent was close to being maximized. The larger issue was poor roster construction, which is an entirely different discussion.

 

[rome8180]

If his results look similar, he'll be here a lot longer than 20 years.

 

[Pantone287]

While I'd prefer everyone be healthy always, I think it's really beneficial that Blakes and Young are claiming spots and the team in general is playing well and establishing an identity without Lively and Whitehead.

I hope they both fully buy in, take on the same attitude as everyone else, and earn their way to starting spots (and to be clear, I don't think there's any reason to doubt Dariq), but it's a nice change to have them feel more like bonus add-ons rather than kingly saviors we're desperately beholden to and must allow to call all the shots.