Player Trevon Duval
- Thread starter DurhamSon
- Start date
The more Duval plays against top competition, the better he'll be. He's a guy that I wish we could see as an upperclassman and see him develop. Think he's a guy who can become a top NBA PG if he can improve his shot and take slightly fewer risks with his passing.
I wish him well if he goes pro, played way better than I expected against an all american.
I wish him well if he goes pro, played way better than I expected against an all american.
He ended up ok. Hopefully the coaches learn from this season and don’t go for the potential Russell Westbrook type in a OAD. You need a sure thing at PG, not a project unless he’s going to benefit you a couple of years down the road. Use the OAD on badass wings who don’t have nearly as much responsibility.
And have shooters in reserve. Kennard blowing up and leaving so soon was a surprise. They seem to understand the importance and ease of recruiting O’Connell-level recruits who can shoot now. That Girard guy would be very valuable down the road.
Duval had a good game. He was very productive. He was also not being guarded, as KU's entire gameplan was to leave him to double every Bagley touch, but I agree that this was one if his best games of the year. And my initial post was probably a little childish/excessive.
However, Slap, you're a fucking idiot if you think criticizing his defense on the last play is "ridiculous". Literally all he had to do was not take himself out of the play and cause a breakdown leaving a wide open shooter to tie the game, and we're in the final four. That's it. We didn't need a crazy assist or dunk or value-add play of any kind, we just need the most basic semblance of awareness and IQ. We literally just needed him to be a body standing on the three point line. Not a difficult goal for most players to achieve.
That's my biggest problem with Duval. Regardless of the aggregate of his ups and downs (which was generally not great, tonight aside), there are certain late game situations where he didn't need to be a hero, he just needed to not be a massive liability, and you could never trust him to just do that.
There are a lot of flaws I can excuse in players, but I have a hard time excusing that.
However, Slap, you're a fucking idiot if you think criticizing his defense on the last play is "ridiculous". Literally all he had to do was not take himself out of the play and cause a breakdown leaving a wide open shooter to tie the game, and we're in the final four. That's it. We didn't need a crazy assist or dunk or value-add play of any kind, we just need the most basic semblance of awareness and IQ. We literally just needed him to be a body standing on the three point line. Not a difficult goal for most players to achieve.
That's my biggest problem with Duval. Regardless of the aggregate of his ups and downs (which was generally not great, tonight aside), there are certain late game situations where he didn't need to be a hero, he just needed to not be a massive liability, and you could never trust him to just do that.
There are a lot of flaws I can excuse in players, but I have a hard time excusing that.
Winning a title with probably the lowest combined backcourt IQ I’ve seen at Duke wasn’t going to be easy.
We're still down in this area next year, IMO, without Trent. Unless O'Connell is ready for a transformative summer in terms of the rest of his game, and becomes a 28mpg+ player.
Maybe you should rewatch it. Duke was scrambling. Graham was pushing it up after the Carter airball and Duke was getting back into defense, and Graham had just created space off Trent. Duval came over to help. Carter made a great play stunting at the Ukraine kid and Trent didn't react quick enough to cover for Duval (who had just covered for him).
You are being overly harsh here. That was not a blatant "Duval is so out of position" you're just finding something to latch on to. It is pretty ridiculous. There were so many other plays in this game that lost us the game. Literally seconds before if Carter gets a 3 footer onto the rim Bagley probably rebounds it. He almost rebounded the airball.
Duval made a mistake on an effort play. This wasn't some egregious mistake, solely blaming this play for the loss, or using this to single him out is such bullshit. We have all had our problems with Duval, but last night he was hustling as much as any player on the floor, and he was Duke's only real source of offense. Saying that KU wasn't guarding him is nonsense, too. Sure, he was being left open on the 3pt line because he can't shoot for shit, but Duval had a couple of great runs in transition and was regularly beating Graham off the dribble into the paint.
You're targeting him because you have been doing it the entire season. Before the season even started you didn't even want him in the starting lineup. Grayson Allen and Trent Jr being essential no shows for Duke in two consecutive games missing wide open 3's, Wendell Carter Jr being a no show for 35 minutes and having only two rebounds, Coach K's awful 2nd half coaching, including deciding not to foul with fouls to give on the game tying 3, etc. These are all much greater reasons as to why Duke lost than Duval giving too much effort on a final play which you are using to throw the kid under the bus.
Yeah, I don't get the Duval negativity for this game. The kid played better in this game than even the most optimistic expectations. If you're going to blame anyone, blame the coaches for not calling a timeout up 3 with the ball to get everyone settled down and to coach them on what to do on D to close out the game (foul at least 2-3 times!). Coaching mistakes are much more egregious than a player trying to make a play and coming up short. And if Svi didn't have an open look, you don't think Graham or Newman would have been open after a few ball reversals and drive and kicks?
He even got called out for that stupid gamble by the announcers during the game. It's OK to say "he played well, but that mistake was costly." What's the big deal?
Duval ended up not being too terrible statistically:
I know Kenpom says De'Aaron Fox is his best comparison, but based on the stats that stand out to me for point guards, Marquis Teague appears to be much closer, and Teague presents a closer narrative as well:
Teague was national championship caliber in 2012, but this is mainly due to Kentucky having one player who was both better than Carter on defense and more efficient than Bagley on offense. Like Duval, Teague was by far the least efficient player in the main lineup, but without him, they probably wouldn't have won the title. They had no alternative at point guard. Doron Lamb played the backup minutes to Teague, and Lamb had an assist rate under 9%.
Teague wound up as pick 29 in the draft. Duval should be picked around there.
I know Kenpom says De'Aaron Fox is his best comparison, but based on the stats that stand out to me for point guards, Marquis Teague appears to be much closer, and Teague presents a closer narrative as well:
Teague was national championship caliber in 2012, but this is mainly due to Kentucky having one player who was both better than Carter on defense and more efficient than Bagley on offense. Like Duval, Teague was by far the least efficient player in the main lineup, but without him, they probably wouldn't have won the title. They had no alternative at point guard. Doron Lamb played the backup minutes to Teague, and Lamb had an assist rate under 9%.
Teague wound up as pick 29 in the draft. Duval should be picked around there.
Pants basically blamed him for the loss which I think is absurd. Coaching, Allen, No show Carter for 35 minutes, outside shooting are way ahead of who is to blame. Duval made a couple mistakes but basically saved our asses for the entire game.
Some people hate Duval on here, unfair imo, and were going to blame him no matter what.
1-K playing that stupid 1-3-1
2-The Carter block
3-Allen playing horrible
4-Carter airballing a 2ft layup. If he makes it the game is over, if it hits rim they don't start that fast break as easily and Bagley possibly grabs the rebound.
Those are way ahead of anything Duval did.
The two plays that Pants pointed out were just as egregious as Carter missing the layup. They were completely boneheaded fuck-ups that also cost us the game when put together with every other fuck-up by the other players, coach, and ref. I certainly wouldn’t put the loss on Duval’s shoulders. He played better than everyone else besides Bagley. But it’s fair to point out Duval made stupid decisions late that severely hurt Duke’s chances of winning. And it shouldn’t have surprised anyone that he would do so. We’ve complained about the b-ball IQ of this backcourt much of the season.
Also, I find it funny that Slap is acting like Pants is the one who can’t be objective about Duval. Slap was the dumbass who vehemently defended Duval’s botched fast break that could have blown the IU game.
Assuming he goes pro, he would be a real anomaly among PG prospects in 3PT shooting/FT shooting, and a bigger anomaly among all players in defensive rebounding. I'll need to go back and find my source material on this, but it was pretty stark. Some GM is going to be taking a serious leap of faith.
And I've admitted Duval made a couple mistakes. But we were in the game because of him. A couple mistakes can be forgiven when you play like he did. When you play like a push for most of the game then your mistakes aren't going to be forgiven as easily.
Roles reversed. If Carter had 20 and 10 but had the same mistakes Duval made and Duval played like a pussy and air balled a layup, he'd probably get some death threats from the DF crowd. I love Carter and Duval pretty equally. But I think Duval, while dumb, has been criticized too harshly whereas Carter has been an absolute no show in huge games and kind of gets a free pass.
Carter gets a free pass? He got hammered on here after the UNC games and after this game. But it’s an irrefutable fact that Carter was so much better than Duval this season. Carter earned some equity. Duval was the worst starter by far, but it’s not entirely fair to Duval to bash him for being the worst starter since he was playing in the most talented starting five in college basketball.
Cmonthefloor, to put it bluntly, I'm just not a huge fan of guys who have a habit of wandering aimlessly all over the place with no purpose or direction and lack the ability to effectively produce points.
I mean, when you have probably the best posts in the country competing with him for looks, it just makes his flaws all the more glaring. Most of the time, he literally just takes up space without providing any benefit to the rest of the guys whatsoever. Why would I miss someone like that if he decides to bounce?
When it comes down to it, any argument for him being a legitimate value-add tends to be based solely on 1) decent enough raw numbers and 2) his overall activity level, and I just don't think dealing with his crap his worth it.
I mean, when you have probably the best posts in the country competing with him for looks, it just makes his flaws all the more glaring. Most of the time, he literally just takes up space without providing any benefit to the rest of the guys whatsoever. Why would I miss someone like that if he decides to bounce?
When it comes down to it, any argument for him being a legitimate value-add tends to be based solely on 1) decent enough raw numbers and 2) his overall activity level, and I just don't think dealing with his crap his worth it.